The Rossi Testimony - minus interruptions and obstructions
Rossi gave his testimony recently and it was extremely hard to read the text of the court transcripts because his lawyers did everything possible to obstruct the deposition. The prosecuting attorneys had only 4 hours and most of that time was spent being harrassed by Rossi's grandstanding attorney. The result is that the transcripts are nearly impossible to follow. Here is a copy of the transcript minus interruptions.
The unedited file was 336 KB while just the Q&A's were 220 KB. Nearly a third of the prosecutors time was wasted by frivolous grandstanding by Patterson.
UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT
DINO ROSSI,
sworn as a witness by the Notary Public,
testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITHEY:
Q. Good morning, can you state your name and give your address for the record, please.
A. Dino Rossi. My address is 24632 Southeast 2nd Place, Sammamish, Washington, 98074.
Q. Mr. Rossi, my name is Mike Withey, I represent Justices Utter and Ireland. I have some questions for you this morning. Mr. Lowney will also have a few later. If you don't understand any Questions or feels too vague or unintelligible to answer, could you ask me to rephrase it?
A. Okay.
Q. And you've had your deposition taken before?
A. Only with the Public Disclosure Commission.
Q. The court reporter would probably appreciate it if you didn't use uh-huhs or huh-uhs, and the same with you so that she can get a verbal transcript.
Agreeable?
A. Understood.
Q. Do you understand this is a deposition taken pursuant to the civil rules and Judge Kallas's orders and that you're under oath and it may be used at a time of either hearing or at trial in this case?
A. Understood.
Q. And first of all, have you received Exhibit 1 which is the Subpoena Duces Tecum that was issued to you that was the subject of some legal --
A. Which is this one?
Q. This is a Subpoena that directs you to bring certain documents with you. Have you brought any documents with you, Mr. Rossi?
A. I have not brought documents.
Q. Have you conducted a search to determine whether there's any documents that are responsive to the Subpoena Duces Tecum?
A. I did look.
Q. And where did you look?
A. My computer. That's where it would have been.
Q. Where is the computer?
A. At my -- in my office.
Q. Did you search your personal residence?
A. Yes, I looked.
Q. And how long did it take you to look at your personal residence?
A. Well, my personal residence, probably about a half an hour at the most.
Q. Did you search your campaign headQuarters for any documents?
A. Looked.
Q. Did you search any business offices?
A. I don't have any other business offices.
Q. Okay. And was there anyone other than yourself that participated in this search?
A. Not for my personal.
Q. All right. And when did you do the search?
A. Shortly after this was received.
Q. And how did you go about determining whether any documents that you had were responsive?
A. I searched for BIAW.
Q. Anything else?
A. That was the main search I did because that was -- seemed to be the concern here.
Q. Well, it also refers to other local affiliated builder groups; correct? United B?
A. Well, that's part of the BIAW, isn't it? I don't know.
Q. Well, did you find any documents that you looked through to determine whether they were needed to comply with the Subpoena?
A. I didn't find any documents, any e-mails.
Q. Okay. And what kind of electronic search did you do? Did you just put in BIAW then?
A. Yeah, outlook search.
Q. Anything else?
A. No.
Q. Did you review any of your phone records?
A. No. I didn't look at the phone records.
Q. You said that the only other deposition you gave was with the Public Disclosure Commission; is that correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You have to answer audibly, sir.
A. Yes, I'm sorry.
Q. Was that under oath?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was the person who took that deposition?
A. I don't remember his name.
Q. And what did you do to prepare for this deposition, Mr. Rossi?
A. This one today?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Met with my counsel for about an hour this morning.
Q. And I'm not going to ask you to disclose anything that you said to him or he said to you but did you review any documents?
A. I read the lawsuit that you folks had filed, and I read that portion of it.
Q. And in addition to the lawsuit, did you review any documents, minutes or other documents that might refresh your recollection about occurrences in the past?
A. What was in the documents that you had put, the excerpts that you had.
Q. Okay. Other than what was in the complaint in the case, did you review any other documents?
A. I don't know what other documents there would be. What kind of documents are you talking about?
Q. Well, for instance, did you review any PDC findings?
A. PDC findings --
Q. Yes.
A. From where?
Q. From any time.
A. Concerning what?
Q. Concerning, including concerning yourself and concerning the BIAW member services corporation, any of the master builders association, anything related to the
PDC that the PDC published.
A. The book?
Q. Which book --
A. All I looked at was the complaint that you had and -- from your lawsuit, and I read that.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) And the attachments?
A. And the attachments.
Q. All right. So if the and the attachments didn't have any PDC documents fair enough?
A. Yeah, the attachments.
Q. Did you speak to anyone other than your attorneys about this deposition?
A. Talked to my wife about it last night that we're going into a political charade.
Q. Did you discuss your deposition with anybody in the press this morning?
A. This morning, no.
Q. Did you have a press conference this morning?
A. Yes, I did have a press conference but I --
Q. Was the subject matter of this deposition and the lawsuit?
A. Yes, we talked about the lawsuit from the standpoint of -- and what I said this morning was that this is one of the reasons why it was difficult to make a decision to run for public office, and which is the fact that having a political lawsuit like this being filed and then being forced off the campaign trail when I should have been today at the Seattle rotary giving a speech or doing TV interviews and radio interviews, have been taken off the campaign trail for political purposes to answer the Questions that I already did at the PDC, they did a six-month investigation, whether I was a candidate or not. And Christine Gregoire's political operatives did a phony complaint, they did extensive Subpoenas, not Subpoenas but depositions from people across the state and they determined I wasn't a candidate for office until December -- or sorry, October of -- 11 of 2007. And because I wasn't a candidate. The likelihood of me running again really wasn't all that high for quite a while there.
Q. This is what you told the press this morning?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. You have to answer audibly.
A. Yes.
Q. And you've given other press statements about this case, fair enough?
A. Yes.
Q. And you understand that when you were giving press statements you weren't under oath, fair enough?
A. Right.
Q. And now you are under oath and it's your statement, I would assume that what you told the press was true; correct?
A. I told the press --
Q. The truth?
A. I told them the truth. Their characterization of what I said may be something different.
Q. Other than your wife, did you discuss this deposition with Jill Strait?
A. My press secretary, yes.
Q. Yes. And did you discuss this with any officers or board member of the BIAW Member Service Corporation, Master Builders Association?
A. No.
Q. And you understand that the law firm Davis Wright Tremaine is here representing the Building Industry Association of Washington; correct?
A. There's the lawyer. You're on behalf of?
A. Both of you are.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) But that's the same firm that represented you in the election challenge in 2004; correct?
A. That's true.
Q. Was your consent asked to allow your prior firm the builders association of Washington in this case?
A. I don't recall being asked.
Q. Now, are you generally familiar with the provisions of the campaign finance laws and public disclosure act in this state?
A. Generally.
Q. And you are aware that the people passed an initiatives back in the '70s; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Pardon me if I don't know your full political history. Did you happen to be in the legislature, take any votes on this law, if you can recall?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Have you read the law?
A. I've read parts of the law.
Q. Have you read any PDC interpretations of the law other than in your own case that you've already referred to?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Have you received or read any candidate's guidelines to the public disclosure law or campaign finance law?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Would you agree that it's the responsibility of a candidate or a would be candidate for office to have -- to know the provisions of the campaign finance law in this state?
MR. WITHEY: Well, Mr. Rossi, the question was do you agree that a candidate or would be candidate has a responsibility to knowing the basic provisions of the campaign finance laws.
A. That's the same question again, isn't it?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You get to answer it now?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you agree it's your responsibility as a candidate for the highest office in this state to have a basic understanding of the campaign finance laws?
A. I have a basic understanding of the campaign finance laws, right. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a lawyer.
Q. I assume that your answer is yes?
A. Yeah, candidates, most candidates I know have a basic understanding of the campaign law. Maybe not as in depth as a lawyer as yourself or the other ones sitting around this table, but most understand the law and as far as the contributions and how those work and declaration of the candidate.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Great. How many different offices have you run for in your political career?
A. I've run for the state senate and I've run for governor.
Q. In how many campaigns?
A. Three state senate and two governor.
Q. And in the process of those elections, you had to get to know some of the provisions of the law that you've just described; correct?
A. True.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, do you agree that the public disclosure of campaign finances is in the public interest?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it.
A. Repeat the question, the court reporter.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you agree?
(The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. Yes.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you believe it's part of the voter's right to know?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, do you believe that the public disclosure finance act is the party right to know?
Q. Do you agree that the public's right to know of the financing of public elections and political campaigns outweighs your own right to privacy as a candidate?
A. I think it's a good idea for the public to know.
Q. And have you -- are you aware of the provision in the law that the financial strength of certain individuals' organizations should not prevent or permit them to exercise a disproportionate or controlling influence on the election of candidates?
A. I'm not sure what the question is.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware of the provisions of the state law passed by the people that states that the financial strength of certain individuals and organizations should not permit them to exercise a disproportionate or controlling influence on the election of candidates?
A. I have not read that in the law.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you agree with that principle personally?
A. Explain what the principle is to me.
Q. The financial strength of certain individuals and organizations should not permit them to exercise a disproportionate or controlling influence on the election of candidates?
A. Oh you mean like SCIU helping pay for lawsuits like this, fuse and other ones that are are paying for sham lawsuits like this one, is that what you're talking
about?
Q. No, I'm asking you generally do you agree with that principle?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you agree with the principle that or are you aware of the principle in the initiative passed by the people that limiting campaign finances include reducing the influence of large organizational contributors?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware that the initiative of the people stated that limiting campaign contributions could reduce the influence of large organizational contributors?
A. That's true, it could reduce, and a group's like SCIU, the federal employees, and fuse, Evergreen process and all the other ones that are behind this
frivolous lawsuit.
Q. Do you agree that the BIAW is a large organizational contributor?
A. They're not as big as those big. They're big but not as big as those groups.
Q. Are you familiar with time PAC, Washington affordable housing council?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know they're PACs of the bye?
A. I know the PAC of change PAC.
Q. And what con treat discrepancy if any has your campaign taken to reduce the influence of either the BIAW or its PACs in this election, if any?
A. Well, the money that isn't coming into my coffers, money is being spent independently just like Evergreen process and SCIU and others, and so if that's what you're talking about. And that's going to Christine Gregoire who you both are working on behalf of.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you know anyone, any large organizational contributor that has raised over six and a half million dollars for activities other than the BIAW and its PACs?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you going to answer the
Question? The Question was, are you aware of anyone other than the BIAW and its PACs that have raised over 6 million dollars for its activity?
A. Yes. SCIU have raised over 20 million. I don't know what they're doing with all the money, they're spending it independently now, so it could all be coming here, who knows.
Q. You've made statements to the press about phone calls or meetings and conversations you had with people in the BIAW and other builder associations before you declared your candidacy for governor; correct?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Have you made statements to the press about contacts or phone calls you've made to BIAW related to before you publicly declared for governor; correct?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you make a statement to the press that because you have not declared yourself a candidate until, was it October of 2007?
A. October 11 of 2007.
Q. But because you had not declared yourself as a candidate on October 11, 2007, you were free to make calls on behalf of the BIAW adding that -- and discussing master builders' participation in their political activities?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Without reviewing the document do you know whether you made such a statement?
A. Let me see what you're referring to.
Q. So you can't determine whether --
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) This is Exhibit 2, an article from the Chris McGann PI capital lawsuit targets Rossi's relationship with builders. On the second page, Mr. Rossi --
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Have you had a chance to read the yellow marked portions of it? Is that an accurate quote?
A. That I hadn't declared myself a candidate. Obviously I had not.
Q. And you were free to make calls on behalf of the BIAW?
A. To try to repair a relationship problem that they had with the Seattle Master Builders.
Q. So is this statement, the yellow marked, accurate or accurate in part or inaccurate?
A. Well, it's not -- yeah, the call was about making -- bringing them back together.
Q. You took -- is it your position that any contact you had with BIAW or MSC or master builders association, you consider to be completely legal before you declared your candidacy for governor?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer the question?
A. Well, you know, I was not a candidate for governor, and at the time all that happened I was about 75 percent sure I would not run for office, and the reason I was pretty sure at that point in time, pretty close that I would not run for office, is because of this sort of thing, us sitting here today. You know, the fact that you folks served Subpoenas at my home pounding at 9:30 at night on the door, serving my teenage daughter with a Subpoena, this is the kind of nonsense that you have to go through for someone to run for public office. And so taking my family through that again, I'd already been through it once, and I've been through a very difficult campaign and through the election contest on top of that. And so to want to go through this again, you know, you folks have proven my case.
MR. WITHEY: Move to strike as nonresponsive. Could the reporter read the question back.
A. I answered the question. Why don't you want me to answer your question?
(The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. My contacts with them were certainly legal. I was want a candidate for governor. I was about 75 percent sure I wouldn't run for public office at that point in time because the toll it takes on the family. Just like you folks, what you've done with me in bringing me here today in the last week of the campaign, serving my teenage daughter at my home with a Subpoena for me for a lawsuit I'm not even a party to. So, yes, this is a -- this is truly a more harassment than anything else. But am I able to do that? I was not a candidate, I wasn't soliciting money for me as a candidate? Not true.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Okay, so you did have contacts with the BIAW and the master builders association before October 11, 2007, related to your candidacy; correct?
A. That's completely false.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) What was your contact with the BIAW then related to?
A. I want the court reporter to read back what you said before. Because I think you said I was a candidate, which I wasn't.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) No, it doesn't matter, I'm going to withdraw the question and rephrase it.
A. I want to make sure what is on this record.
Q. We're entitled to do that, Mr. Rossi. We're going to go to the next question. Did you make --
A. I think that's what you said.
Q. Because you had not declared until then; correct?
A. Because I had not declared until then?
Q. Yes. You were not a candidate because you were not declared until October 11 --
(Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked for identification.)
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) This is Seattle Times article December 28th, ex judges target building industry group Rossi and the yellow marked portion if I could read it to you, sir. Rossi spokeswoman Jill Straight also denied the former judge's claim saying Rossi's discussions with building industry officials came before he was officially a candidate for office. Is that a true statement by Jill straight?
A. I was not a candidate for office.
Q. But she represented to the press that Rossi's discussion with building industry officials came before he was officially candidate for office. Is that part of the statement true as well?
A. Yeah, I was not a candidate for office.
Q. But did you have discussions with building industry officials before you became a candidate for office?
A. What was indicated in the article?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) No, as indicated in this sentence.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm not asking you to agree to anything above, Mr. Rossi, I'm just saying did you have discussions with building -- as Jill represented to the press, did you have discussions with building industry officials before you officially declared as a candidate?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you going to answer the question?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Let me ask it again. Jill straight made a representation to the press as indicated in this article, fair enough?
A. True.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Okay. Was what -- did you authorize her to make this statement?
A. I didn't talk to her before she made this statement about making this specific statement.
Q. Do you believe it was an authorized statement in the sense that she spoke for the campaign?
A. She works for my campaign.
Q. Was there anything untruthful?
A. Can you read the Question back.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Was there anything untruthful about this statement she made to the press as indicated in this line, the yellow marked one?
A. No, but I'm not agreeing to everything else that was in this article.
Q. Didn't ask you to. Do you know who Doug barns is?
A. Doug barns is with the Seattle Master Builders.
Q. In 2007 do you know if he was president of that organization?
A. I don't remember his position.
Q. Who is Joe Schwab?
A. He's also with the same group.
Q. And John day?
A. With the same group.
Q. And prior to May 21, 2007, do you recall having a phone call or contact with them with respect to their position related to the election?
A. Prior to when?
Q. May 21st, 2007.
A. I don't know about the date.
Q. All right. And, well, did you have contact with them in your recollection, in other words, do you recall contacting one or all of them?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the subject matter of that contact?
A. The subject matter was the -- there was a rift in between the two groups, BIAW and Seattle Master Builders, and so the idea was trying to mend fences between the two because it looked like a personality clash.
Q. Who informed you of that rift?
A. Tom Mc Cabe.
Q. And what did Mr. Mc Cabe tell you?
A. That the Seattle Master Builders were not supportive of their overall effort and, as I recollect that was really the conversation. Asked if maybe I could bring them all back together.
Q. And what -- on what issues had this rift developed along?
A. It was -- as I understood it more of a personality clash with Daimon Doyle who was a -- I think he was the head of the BIAW at that point in time. And with the folks that were at Seattle Master Builders, because they have, you know, different approaches to politics, the two different groups and don't always see eye to eye. But they're both small business oriented groups, and the idea that they should be one is better than a scattered shotgun effect when it comes to supporting pro small business candidates. And they support a lot of pro small business candidates all over the state, Republican and Democrat, including Judy Clibborn from the 41st district who was a Democrat and Tim she will done and other ones who in the legislature and throughout state government. And, you know, putting that together would have been more -- would be a stronger effort than them being separate.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Let's move on, Mr. Rossi, was political spending part of the rift that you've described?
A. Overall the groups together in their -- the political effort in their political financial health together is stronger, so in a general sense, yes.
Q. So I assume you discussed this rift then with Mr. Barns, Mr. Schwab and Mr. Day?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Is that correct?
A. Did I discuss it with them?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you were aware that both groups had supported you in the past; correct?
A. They had.
Q. And you believed that even if you had discussed funding of -- or strike that. Even if you had discussed specifics about money, again, this is prior to when you declared, that that would have been completely legal because you were not declared as a candidate yet; correct?
A. Go ahead and read the Question back, please.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, did you tell the press it would have been acceptable to discuss money with these two groups, the BIAW and the master builders, but because you had not become a candidate at that time?
A. I said that I wasn't a candidate, and I was about 75 percent sure at that time I would not be a candidate for any office ever again after what we had gone through in 2004. And so the reality of that is we were talking in a general sense for them to come together to support pro business candidates.
(Deposition Exhibit 4 was marked for identification.)
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, Exhibit 4 is a Seattle Times article by Kurt Woodward of the associated press October 7, 2008 at 12 A.m.. and let me direct your attention to the second page of that, the yellow marked portion. I'll read it into the record, if I make a mistake please correct me. Rossi has said he was merely trying to patch a rift between the two groups, both of which had supported him in the past. Although their political spending was part of the schism, Rossi says he didn't discuss any specifics about money. Is that an accurate statement?
A. I didn't ask them to split money, a specific amount of money or any money in certain places.
Q. Okay.
A. That's true.
Q. And the rest of the statement is true about patching up the rift; correct?
A. That was the main issue.
Q. Now the next sentence, even if he had, Rossi has argued that that would have been acceptable since he hadn't become a candidate for governor yet. Did you also make that statement?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Is the next sentence accurate?
A. Right. It says time of candidacy was important -- yeah, I wasn't a candidate. I believe that I was about like I said 75 percent sure I would never run for office again. And I was just trying to patch up a relationship that obviously -- told be like Christine Gregoire having parts of SCIU fighting with each other and both groups supported her and she was trying to patch up the rift with SCIU.
Q. Move to strike as nonresponsive?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm asking Mr. Rossi if you agree that the that in that sentence refers to discussing specifics about money.
A. Yeah, but I didn't do that.
Q. Right. Because you weren't declared a candidate?
A. I wasn't a candidate. I wasn't a declared or undeclared candidate, and that's what the six-month long PDC investigation found out, under oath, and that's exactly where we were. I was a private citizen at that point in.
Q. How many individuals within the BIAW or master builders like Mr. Barns or Mr. Schwab or Mr. Day did you contact with respect to their political activities prior to when you declared your candidacy?
A. I don't recall specifically contacting anybody else but those folks.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, you talked to Daimom Doyle, did you not?
A. Right. I already mentioned him earlier.
Q. Okay. Other than -- is your testimony other than Daimon Doyle, Mrs. Barn, swab and day, you had no contact with anybody at either BIAW or master builders association with respect to this topic; correct?
A. Which topic?
A. I didn't talk to -- I didn't call anybody else in that group that I remember that I recall.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you call anyone with master builders association of Pierce County about political spending?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you use cell phone or house phone or office phone or all of the above to call those individuals?
A. I don't recall.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you pay for any of the calls yourself in 2007 before you declared?
A. You mean like a pay phone or something?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) For instance a cell phone bill. Did you have a cell phone?
A. Yes aid a phone.
Q. What was your phone number?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you pay your cell phone bill by yourself personally or did some campaign or other agency pay it?
A. I wasn't a candidate office so it certainly wasn't a campaign that paid for it, I paid for my own cell phone.
Q. Thank you. And you're unwilling to give us even confidentially if we keep this confidential, you're willing to give us your phone number?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware, have you been informed that we've subpoenaed the minutes and notes and note takers of the building association to produce those minutes tomorrow and throughout the end of the week and next week?
A. I don't know about that.
Q. And your testimony would be that there would be no reference to any contacts you would make other than BIAW and master builders of King County in any of those minutes or notes related to your contacting them for the purpose of political funding?
A. Not that I'm aware of. How would I know what they put in their notes?
Q. Okay.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) What was the political spending that was part of the schism that -- or the rift, excuse me, that you've referred to?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I said what was the political spending aspect of the rift that you described?
A. The political spending would be their participation, or however they participate. I'm not sure how their mechanism works. But them being together as one group instead of going off in separate directions.
Q. Were your efforts successful?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) To mend the rift.
A. To mend the rift?
Q. Yes.
A. It was a personality conflict that I don't think ever got resolved.
Q. Was it in your interest to see if you could mend the rift between those organizations?
A. No, it wasn't my interest, it was in the interest of State of Washington to promote small business candidates and that is what the BIAW and the Seattle Master Builders do, and it was not specifically for any candidate, it was specifically to support pro business candidates like Judy Clibborn, Democrat from Mercer Island who was supported heavily by BIAW and other Democrats and Republicans across the state who are small business oriented people.
Q. Including yourself?
A. What's that?
Q. Including yourself?
A. I wasn't a candidate.
Q. Did you understand that the BIAW or some of the associations had the expectations of receiving donations for electoral activities for 2008?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer.
A. I'm not going to speculate what they were going to do and not do, I'm not involved in their meetings. I'm not part of their organization.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, were you aware that BIAW and other builder associations had received donations and made expenditures for your race for governor in 2004?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you have the expectancy that BIAW and master builders association would raise money for your candidacy if you decided to declare for governor?
A. I didn't know if they would or wouldn't. That was not discussed for me, because I wasn't a candidate. And if you look at most of the documents in your lawsuit you see the word if many times because I told people it had to make sense for my family, is there a reason for me to run for office again. And like I said, at this point in time I was 75 percent sure I'd never run for office again after what we had gone through before, and being here today is more evidence of it.
MR. WITHEY: Move to strike as nonresponsive.
MR. WITHEY: Do you understand how political committee is defined under the campaign finance --
Q. You spoke at a BIAW meeting at Semiahmoo in June 29, 2007 before you declared as a candidate; correct?
A. True.
Q. Because you had not declared, you believe your attendance at that meeting and the speech you gave was totally legal, fair enough?
A. It was absolutely legal. I was there giving a speech about how to improve the business climate for small and medium sized businesses. On behalf of the non-profit, non-partisan foundation called the forward Washington foundation that I founded. And these people are small business oriented folks and so they asked me to come up and give a talk.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, Mr. Lowney is going to ask you a few more questions about that meeting in May 21, 2007, just for your information. I'm going to move on to another topic?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware of the fact that the Public Disclosure Commission and Attorney General Rob McKenna have asserted in court that both of the BIAW member services corporation and the master builders association of king and Snohomish County committed multiple violations of the campaign finance laws by failing to register as a political committee in 2007?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Back on the record. In the break we've made a partial transcript of the deposition to -- as of this time, and we're having my staff come and get that on a USB port and she will send that to the parties, to counsel for Mr. Rossi and to the Court with the reQuest that we have a conference call, if possible, with the Court to go over the objections as I stated before, before the break.
Q. I'd like the next exhibit marked, please.
(Deposition Exhibit 5 was marked for identification.)
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, Exhibit 5 the executive summary and staff analysis of the citizen action letter filed by my clients, former Justices of the Supreme Court, and I'd like to direct your attention to Page 3, if I could, the yellow highlight. I'll read it to you, and correct me if I'm wrong. BIAW-MSC officers decided to approach the 15 local associations to ask them to contribute the difference between the estimated and actual retro refunds for use by change PAC in the 2008 election. Do you see that?
A. I see it.
Q. And then the next sentence says, following the solicitations, 11 of the 15 associations authorized BIAW, MSC to retain a portion of their 2007 retro program refund for use in the 2008 election. Do you see that?
A. I see that written here.
Q. Do you have any understanding or knowledge as to those transactions?
A. I'm not sure what this is about. The BIAW decided that the 15 local associations. That's the groups under BIAW or with BIAW?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Yes.
A. Is that what it is?
Q. Yes. I'm just asking if you're aware of --
A. No, I'm not.
Q. Thank you. The last is the conclusion of the PDC --
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Last page. Does support the allegation, the BIAW MSC committed multiple violations of RCW 42.17 by failing to register as a political committee, et ceterA. Were you aware of that conclusion of the PDC?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Go ahead, you can answer the
Question. I'm asking if you're aware of the finding by the PDC that BIAW-MSC failed to register as a political committee.
A. I read that in the newspaper.
Q. Did you -- okay. You have never read this document then?
A. I must have missed that part.
Q. Okay.
A. I saw the front of this document before.
Q. And as far as you understood, you understood that if you had contact with and -- with the BIAW prior to when you became a candidate for governor, that resulted in any contributions, that it was legal because you had not declared; correct?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware that Rob McKenna brought a lawsuit against the BIAW member services corporation?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware that the Attorney General Rob McKenna brought a lawsuit against BIAW MSC?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer.
A. When was this done?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) It was filed on September 19, 2008.
A. I read about that in the newspaper.
Q. Did you read the allegation? And I'll read it to you. Do you want me to give you a copy.
(Deposition Exhibit 6 was marked for identification.)
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 6 let me read you from section 3.5, paragraph 3.5?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Complaint by the State of Washington against BIAW member services corporation. 3.5, as a result of the anticipated overage amount over the original estimate, BIAW MSC officers personally approached each of the BIAW's 15 local builders association and requested they contribute some or all of their excess unanticipated retro funds to assist with 2008 political campaigns. These personal visits to the local builders association occurred between March 7 and July 10, 2007. First of all, are you aware of that allegation?
A. I really don't have any knowledge of how BIAW organizes or gets their money.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) So it's your testimony that --
A. That I know.
Q. Sorry. It's your testimony that you knew of no such approach as indicated in this allegation; correct?
A. Approach. What do you mean approach?
Q. Well, it states, the BIAW officers personally approached each of the BIAW's 15 local builders association. I'm asking whether you then have no knowledge of such approach.
A. I'm not really sure who they approached or who they didn't approach.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, do you have any basis to contradict the statement made by Mr. McKenna in that?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer.
A. I'm not aware of who they approached or didn't approach.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) So you have no basis of agreeing with or disagreeing with that statement; correct?
A. That would be correct. I mean, I don't know who they approached or didn't approach?
Q. After Mr. -- Attorney General McKenna brought this complaint, have you ever called upon the BIAW MSC to not use those funds, that Attorney General of the state believed were improperly and illegally collected?
A. I haven't picked up the phone and talked to BIAW at all about this.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Were you aware that they endorsed you for governor on November 9, 2008 -- 2007, excuse me?
A. November when?
Q. 9, 2007.
A. Yes, they did. They being?
Q. The BIAW.
A. BIAW, yeah.
Q. To your knowledge, in 2007 did the BIAW member services corporation or the master builders association expect to receive contributions to further your electoral dollars, including your governor's race?
A. At what time?
Q. 2007 prior to when you declared.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Prior to when you declared in 2007, were you aware whether the BIAW member services corporation or the master builders association had expected to receive contributions to them for the governor's race?
A. I didn't know what contributions they were going to have or not, and I wasn't a candidate for governor and I didn't -- you know, I was not a candidate for governor until October 11 of 2007.
Q. Are you aware of the concept of improper coordination as it applies to the campaign finance laws?
A. In what way?
Q. Well, in the way that -- you've read -- strike that. Do you understand what independent expenditure is?
A. It means it's independent.
Q. Independent of what?
A. Of a candidate.
Q. Are there restrictions on such expenditures that you're aware of in the laws?
A. Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't believe you can tell them to run ads for you or not run ads for you. I think that's part of it.
Q. And if they did that, that would constitute improper coordination of a campaign with a --
A. If you told them to run a certain ad or.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm just asking for your understanding.
A. I mean, you know, my understanding is that you can't tell independent folks, independent groups what they can say or not say, which is why in a campaign, having independent groups out there can be sometimes a detriment to the candidate because you just don't know what they're going to say or what they're going to do.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) As a candidate for governor, do you believe it's permissible for you to have contact with an individual organization for the purposes of asking them whether they would be willing to support your campaign?
A. There was no campaign to ask to support.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm saying now?
A. Oh, now?
Q. Yes.
A. Ask a group to support my campaign, plenty of groups to support a campaign.
Q. So that would not be improper coordination. Fair enough?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Have you read any PDC staff memos regarding what constitutes improper coordination?
A. I can't recall reading those.
Q. What's your understanding of when a person who is considering running for office becomes a candidate for office under the campaign finance laws?
A. When they solicit or accept money, when they publicly declare that they are a candidate. You have 14 days from that time period to actually trial with the PDC. We decided -- I decided on October 11th that I would be a candidate. My wife and I made that decision that morning. And 14 days later we filed all the paperwork and made the public announcement on the 25th of October.
Q. When did you first become aware the BIAW was raising money for your campaign?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it.
A. You know, I don't know that they are going to raise money until you see something that they actually produce from it, so there's no knowledge of raising money because I had no campaign. And until we saw evidence of that on the air waves and the like.
Q. Do you recall when that first was?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you understand that the person can become a candidate where the existence of a political committee promoting the election of that individual for public office occurs with the knowledge and consent of an individual?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) that's your understanding? Is that your understanding?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) The question I'm asking you is whether there's other ways than what you suggested you could become a candidate, all right, and so I'm going to ask you whether you understand that you can become a candidate as follows: Where there's the existence of a political committee promoting the election of you in this case for public office --
A. Could we stop and ask for a clarification? What does that mean political existence. What does that mean?
Q. That means you're aware of a fact that political committee exists that's promoting your candidacy and you give consent to that.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you understand that that would then make you a candidate even if you had not declared?
A. If that were true, but that's not true in this case because I wasn't a candidate and there was no political committee set aside from me. You can believe I'm going to be a great senator and inform a group to try to support me in 2010. That doesn't make me a candidate.
Q. I understand, I think I've answered it.
A. Am I getting that clear, what I'm saying? Using you as an example. You can do that but it still doesn't make me a candidate.
Q. I'm asking you this. If you're aware and give consent to a political committee promoting your election, that makes you a candidate, correct?
A. And I gave no such consent.
Q. I'm asking whether you understood that that would make you a candidate.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) So your answer is you don't know?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you recall answering that I'm not a lawyer, Mr. Rossi?
A. Well, I'm not a lawyer.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you familiar with --
A. Sitting here in a room full of lawyers.
(Deposition Exhibit 7 was marked foridentification.)
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 7, this is a copy of the Washington Administrative Code 390-05-200. And I'm going to read it to you, the first two portions of it. The following circumstance shall give rise to a presumption that an individual as a candidate, as that term is definede in RCW 42.17.020 paren 8, one, the existence of a political committee promoting the election of such individual for public office with the knowledge and consent of that individual. Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes, you did.
Q. All right.
A. So knowledge and consent is connected; right?
Q. Yes. So I'm asking you whether you understood that you could become a candidate in this manner even if you had not declared your candidacy.
A. If I knew they had a specific fund for me and I said go do it? That's my consent; right?
Q. My question is this. Do you understand that you could become a candidate in the manner set forth in this WAC even if you had not declared your candidacy for governor in October of 2007?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it. A. I did not give my consent to anybody just to start anything, any political activities on my behalf because I was not a candidate.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) But you understood, however, that if you had given consent to a political committee --
A. Which I didn't.
Q. Let me finish the Question, please. You understood that had you known about and given consent to a political committee to promote you for governor, you would become a candidate even before you'd declared your candidacy?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it.
A. I wasn't a candidate for governor.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) But you now understand that if the existence of a political committee --
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You understand that the existence of a political committee, all right --
A. Political committee that's outside my control.
Q. You understand the existence of a political committee promoting your election if done with your knowledge and consent would make you a candidate even if you had not declared?
A. I wasn't a candidate.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You understand that the extent to which the Attorney General determined that BIAW MSC was a political committee in 2007 and that they then with your knowledge and consent supported your candidacy, that that would be illegal; correct?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer the question?
A. I wasn't a candidate for governor.
Q. When did you first find out that the BIAW had moved $2 million of their budget into your governor's campaign?
A. Can you say that again? When did what?
Q. When did you first find out that the BIAW in a meeting in Spokane moved $2 million of their budget into your campaign?
A. First off, that's incorrect. There was no money moved into my campaign. He said into my campaign.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I did.
A. That's wrong.
Q. In November after you declared?
A. They cannot give 2 million into my campaign.
Q. So the extent to which they gave that statement that would be wrong; correct?
A. You're making that statement would be wrong.
Q. If the BIAW made that statement they would also be wrong; correct?
A. Right, because they can't move money into my campaign, that size of money.
Q. And in light of the definition of candidate that I just -- that you just were shown, did you take any efforts to determine whether the BIAW MSC or the master builders association were political committees under the campaign finance law?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you understand the question?
A. Not really.
Q. All right then I'll rephrase it.
A. Redo it.
Q. What efforts did you undertake to determine whether the BIAW master services corporation or the master builders association of King County were political committees under the campaign finance laws?
A. At what time? When?
Q. In 2007 before you declared.
A. Before I was a candidate for governor?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. You did not?
A. No, I wasn't a candidate for governor.
Q. Do you think it was your responsibility as a potential, even if it's only 25 percent --
A. As a private citizen?
Q. No. Do you think it's your responsibility as a potential candidate to determine whether an organization that you've admitted calling members of was or was not a political committee?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer.
A. Can repeat back the question please.
The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. I was 75 percent sure I would never run for office again so I wasn't even considering myself a potential candidate at that point in time, so no.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) So in other words, it did not matter whether they were political committees or not as long as you had not declared as a candidate?
A. That's not what I said.
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm asking you a different question. Does it matter to you whether the BIAW MSC or the master builders association were political committees in 2007 before you declared your candidacy?
A. It's nothing I had knowledge of. I mean, was a private citizen. MR. WITHEY: I'm going to have Mr. Lowney ask you a few questions, Mr. Rossi.
Q. (BY LOWNEY) Mr. Rossi, thank you again for being here today?
A. My pleasure.
Q. Are you familiar with the organization BIAW member services corporation?
A. What's member services corporation?
Q. That was yes or no question. Are you familiar with that organization?
A. I know Seattle Master Builders, is that the same thing?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) My question is, are you familiar with BIAW member service corporation, yes or no?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) No. The question is are you familiar with that organization?
A. I'm familiar with BIAW.
Q. Okay. My question is --
A. Master services corporation.
Q. Then the answer would be no?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm going to ask you the question again. Are you familiar with BIAW member services corporation? Yes or no?
A. Well, I'm not sure about -- I know what BIAW is. Building Industry Association of Washington. I don't know what the other part is. If that's the Seattle Master Builders then that's a different group, I don't know.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Let me say, to clarify, if this helps you, it is a separate corporation, BIAW member services corporation. Are you familiar with that corporation?
A. I've had no contact with anybody from the corporation with that -- that I know of. Maybe -- I don't know.
Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a group called people for efficient government?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall -- do you recall previously having any independent expenditures for any of your campaigns being investigated for improper coordination?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Do you recall previously having any independent expenditures for any of your campaigns being investigated for improper coordination?
A. I don't recall that being the case. I mean, your candidate, Chris Gregoire, is the only Attorney General from Washington history to be fined by the public disclosure commission for illegal campaign practices. I haven't.
Q. So the question is no you're not going it --
A. I don't recall that happening.
Q. Okay, thank you. When you ran for governor in 2004, did the BIAW fund independent expenditures either for you or against Christine Gregoire?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When you ran for governor in 2000, did the BIAW expend expenditures either for you or against Chris Gregoire?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you have any idea how much money the BIAW spent on those independent expenditures?
A. What was the question again?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Do you have any idea how much money it spent on these independent expenditures?
A. BIAW?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. Did you coordinate, did you coordinate with BIAW during the 2004 election cycle?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Thank you. You can answer.
A. No.
Q. Did any of your campaign staff have regular contact with the BIAW during the period during which they were making independent expenditures in 2004 election cycle?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) To your knowledge did any of your campaign staff have regular contact with the BIAW during the time that the BIAW was funding independent expenditures during the 2004 election cycle?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did you visit the BIAW headquarters in the 12 months before the 2004 election?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) If you can answer please do.
A. What was the question again.
Q. Did you visit the BIAW headquarters in the 12 months before the 2004 election?
A. So that would have been 2003? I don't recall.
Q. Okay. Did BIAW staff or officers visit your campaign headquarters during that time that you recall?
A. No, I don't recall.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Don't recall, okay?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did you share non-public information with the BIAW during the 2004 election cycle?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) If you recall.
A. No, that wouldn't be the right way to answer that. Read the question again.
Q. Did you share non-public information with the BIAW during that campaign cycle?
A. Non-public information such as?
Q. Yes. Information that you or your campaign had about the campaign, about your fund raising, about anything --
A. Yard signs, that kind of thing? What?
Q. Anything related to your campaign, sharing non-public information with the BIAW.
A. I never shared any non-public information with BIAW.
Q. Did the BIAW tell you or your campaign staff their campaign plans for independent expenditures during that election cycle?
A. No knowledge of that.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Now, Mr. Rossi, you did coordinate with the BIAW during the election recount process; is that correct?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'll ask the question again. You did coordinate with the BIAW during the election recount process, didn't you?
(Deposition adjourned at 12:19 p.m., to be reconvened at 1:00 p.m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION1:00 p.m.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) We're back on the record. Last before we broke you suggested -- you said you didn't not recall whether or not you coordinated with BIAW during the election recount process.
A. Can you read back what it was.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Well, I'm just going to move on.
A. Okay, good.
A. Well, I'd like to hear what you said.
Q. Actually, I was just getting to our place?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm going to give you what's been marked as Exhibit 8, and I'm going to mark something for you.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Have you seen this document before?
A. No. I don't know what it is.
Q. Okay. It does appear to be BIAW news highlights from January 3, 2005. Does that appear to be what it is?
A. I have no idea what this is.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. It does say on it --
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'd like to direct -- MR. LOWNEY: I'm directing his attention to a particular --
A. Can I read the document first?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can read the portion that I'm referring you will to. It's the first paragraph, it's the only thing relevant.
A. I can't read anything else?
Q. The relevant portion is the first paragraph?
A. Thank you.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'd like the record to reflect that we've taken, what, two minutes to read a one-page document. This document does say --
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) This document states that BIAW members and staff are continuing to do everything possible to assist Dino Rossi in finding the necessary 100 ammunition to legally challenge the election. Does that refresh your recollection as to assistance that BIAW provided you in your campaign during the recount process?
A. Is it doesn't say what they did. I don't know --
Q. I know, I'm asking does this refresh your recollection.
A. Well, they were helpful, sure.
Q. How were they helpful?
A. They were out there concerned about election fraud, which ended up resulting in the end where they found that a large number of people who were dead actually voted, and they found that there was hundreds more votes in King County that were cast that they couldn't actually connect to any individuals that cast the ballot. They found that thousands of felons had voted and they were out there looking through the country side to find where the election fraud was, and they discovered
Quite a bit of it in the end which I thought maybe I wasn't going too far out on a limb by saying every vote should have a voter.
Q. They provided this information directly to you and your campaign?
A. I don't know where it went from there. Nothing was given to me.
Q. Do you have any knowledge of them giving that information to you or your campaign?
A. I don't know where the information -- this was quite a while ago.
Q. Okay, so your testimony is you don't recall that happening?
A. Yeah. I'm not sure exactly what came across or what didn't come across.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) How much time did you spend at the BIAW headQuarters during the recount process?
A. I don't know that I was there. I'm not sure.
Q. Okay?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did any of your campaign staff work out of the BIAW headQuarters during the recount process?
A. No idea
Q. Did any of the BIAW staff work out of the Dino Rossi headquarters during that recount process?
A. I was hardly ever in the Dino Rossi headquarters during that election contest. You know, we had just gone through an election that came down to where after three million votes were cast, I was certified the winner by 261 votes, and then automatic recount had me certified by 43 votes, and then the hand recount by some of your friends like moveon.org during the recount process moveon.org and others. The hand recount flipped it by 129 votes in King County. The last thing I was interested in doing was being in political office at that point in time.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. After the hand recount 103 had found that you lost the 2004 election, you filed a lawsuit to try and overturn that decision; is that correct?
A. That's false.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Were you involved in challenging that final hand recount?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Was your name on a lawsuit challenging the recount?
A. The state party filed a lawsuit, I believe, is what it was.
Q. Did you give them the consent to file that lawsuit?
A. My consent wasn't necessary.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So did you give your consent for the party to file a lawsuit challenging the hand recount?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) The question is did you give your consent to that. That's the question.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer the question.
A. So what do you mean by consent? Did I write them a letter and tell them to go do it? What did I do? What is consent?
Q. Your name was on the lawsuit, is that correct, as a party to the lawsuit?
A. It was awhile ago.
A. I don't recall, but whether I gave consent or not, they're free to go do what they would like.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. Do you believe that you gave your consent for the party to file the lawsuit challenging --
A. Is that a question.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm saying your belief.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer that.
A. So you want me to speculate what I believed in 2005, is that what you want me to do?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) If you recall.
A. Don't recall.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did you see the complaint before it was filed?
A. I don't recall seeing the claim before it was filed.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did you want a revote?
A. Did I want a revote?
Q. Yeah.
A. Yes, I think that would have been the logical thing to do.
Q. And if the judge allowed a revote were you planning to have -- to have -- to participate as a candidate for the revote?
A. You know, actually what I said was that if the judge were to -- it was so muddled up at the end there was no way of knowing who actually won the election in the end, and if the judge flipped it over for me to become governor I would immediately resign, because I wouldn't want to be there as an illegitimate governor. And when you take a more accurate method by which is a machine count and overturn it with a less accurate method as many of your Democrat friend auditors said it was a less accurate method, and you would have nothing more than an illegitimate governorship. So I said at that point in time if the judge were to flip it over that I would immediately resign and seek for a revote so we can actually have a legitimate election. But you also would have to clean up the system of which our secretary of state, Sam Reed, didn't have a statewide database before, now he does, and with the statewide voter database he's wiped off 465,000 registration voting rolls that shouldn't have been there before. 465,000 --
Q. I'm going to have to strike as nonresponsive.
A. So there were 465,000 registrations he took off the voting rolls. He took off felons and dead people and the voting rolls are now cleaned up. That would have to also -- we try to move to clean that up before we actually go for a row vote.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When the lawsuit was not successful, did you make the decision not to file an 108 appeal?
A. Yes, I did. I pulled -- yeah, I said, I'm not going to go further than this. We had the majority of the Supreme Court that clearly would not be in favor for this. One used to work for Christine Gregoire herself and so it didn't make a lot of sense to go further than Wenatchee.
Q. And are you familiar with how much money the BIAW spent in supporting your recount effort and the -- yeah.
A. I'm not familiar with the total dollars that were spent.
Q. Does $1.7 million sound correct?
A. Sounds like a lot.
Q. Have you heard that term before?
A. Not 1.7, no.
Q. Did you have any conversations with the BIAW about their support for your effort during the recount and the election contest?
A. With BIAW?
Q. Yes.
A. I'm not recall what conversations we had, if any.
Q. Did you have regular conversations with the attorneys on the case, David Wright Tremaine during the election contest?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Were you represented by Davis Wright Tremaine during that election contest?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer the question?
A. What was the question?
(The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. My understanding is they were representing the Washington state Republican party because they're the one that brought the suit, and I was part of that too, I guess. I was named on it, I guess, but I -- the state party was driving it.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) After the election contest was over, did you ask BIAW to assist you in paying off the legal fees owed to Davis Wright Tremaine?
A. I asked them to assist in paying the state party the legal fees of the state party had.
Q. How much money did you ask them for?
A. I don't remember what the bill was in the end.
Q. Does it sound possible that you asked them to pay $2 million towards your legal fees?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer the question.
(The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. I didn't ask them to pay $2 million for legal fees.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So if meeting minutes of the BIAW said that you asked for $2 million, would you think that those meeting minutes would be incorrect?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm just asking you if you feel that that would be incorrect, those meeting minutes?
A. Can I see the meeting minutes?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Do you need to see the minutes to refresh your recollection about whether or 112 not you asked for $2 million?
A. I'm just trying to decide if you're making this up or just like you have with this lawsuit, just like you did with the one with Mike McGavick, the phony lawsuit that was thrown out, you tried to cloud the issue on a major U.S. senate race in 2006 and was thrown out after the fact, I'm trying to figure out if you actually have any information here at all.
Q. I'm moving to strike that, but I would ask --
A. Because this is clearly -- what's going on here is a farce, and you did this with Mike McGavick and now you're doing it with me. Unfortunately it was allowed to go too far here. You've done this time and time again, this is what you do for a living, apparently.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And so it is your testimony today that you don't recall ever asking for $2 million from the BIAW?
A. No, that's not my testimony. My testimony is asking you for the minutes because I don't believe what you tell me because you're not a --
Q. I'm just asking --
A. Credible.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) What did you say?
A. It's not credible. Your lawsuit against Mike McGavick isn't credible and this isn't credible.
Q. Can I ask you to answer the question, which is do you recall whether or not you asked for $2 million from the BIAW to pay off your attorneys fees?
A. I said I don't recall asking BIAW for $2 million.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay, thank you. Do you recall asking for a smaller amount from the BIAW?
A. I don't know what the amount that covered the state party was. I don't remember?
Q. You don't recall how much you asked for? A. I don't recall. Q. Do you recall asking for money from the BIAW?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And if you don't recall you can say I don't recall. Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Now you can answer.
A. It wasn't my legal fees, it was the state party's legal fees.
Q. I understand.
A. And so you characterize it as my legal fees, which is inaccurate. And the dollar amount I don't recall what it was.
Q. Do you recall how much they ultimately paid --
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know, do you recall whether or not they paid -- whether or not the BIAW paid anything for your legal fees?
A. I don't recall what they did in the end.
Q. Okay. And did you ask about how the transaction would go down whether they should pay money to Davis Wright Tremaine directly or to the state Republican party, is that something you discussed?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Let's talk about the forward Washington case. In that case you did give testimony about becoming a candidate; is that correct? Yes or no?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) In the forward Washington case -- I'll rephrase the question. In the forward Washington case --
A. The public disclosure case?
Q. Yes. You gave testimony about when you became a candidate; is that correct?
A. The state Democratic party filed a phony PDC complaint just like you have here claiming that somehow I was a candidate, and what they hung their hat on is that we had filed paperwork during the election contest that said that I was a candidate. The reason we did that is because the PDC told us that we had to because they had no way of tracking money for the -- for election contest because they really had no mechanism for that. They're the ones that told us to. They did a six-month investigation and interrogated dozens of people and in the end they concluded that I was not a candidate as we've been talking about all day long. And that's after six months of trying to find whatever they could that would declare I was a candidate. Those words never crossed my lips that I was a candidate until my wife and I decided the morning of October 11, 2007, when I thought it was right for my family and it was the right thing to do would be to run for governor. And until then, and most of the time what we're supposed to be talking about here which was supposed to be back in 2007, like I said before, I was 75 percent sure I wouldn't be running for office again.
Q. But it is the case, is it not, that the question of your interaction with the BIAW never came up during that investigation; is that correct? 21
A. I don't recall.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You don't recall?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When you attended the semiahoo summer BIAW board meeting on June 29, 2007, you were giving a speech there for forward Washington; is that correct?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You were there to give a speech before Washington?
A. I was the lunchtime speaker and I gave a PowerPoint presentation on proving the business climate in the State of Washington for small and medium sized businesses. I was president of the forward Washington foundation which is a non-profit, non-partisan foundation that the Democrats filed a phony PDC complaint against. They tried to claim that somehow I was a candidate because I was using my first amendment rights of free speech, which I still actually have and had then, to talk about issues at the state level. And that's what I was doing there.
Q. Okay. And did you attend the executive committee meeting in the morning?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Okay. And when did you arrive at semiahoo that day? 120
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you attend the entire board meeting?
A. I don't think so. I gave a speech, a lunchtime speech.
Q. Do you recall who introduced you?
A. No. I've given thousands of speeches in the last couple of years. I don't recall everybody who has actually introduced me at these events.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And did you stay until the end of the meeting?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall having conversations with anyone else at Semiahmoo other than -- who did you give -- have conversations with there?
A. It wasn't that memorable so I'm sure I probably talked to -- I mean there was a lot of people there. I'm sure I probably talked to Tom Mc Cabe was there, he was with the BIAW.
Q. Do you recall any conversations --
A. Do you want me to think about it?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Yeah, go ahead.
A. I'm trying to remember. I mean, there were a lot of people there.
Q. Do you have -- so your testimony to the PDC was that you didn't collect any money prior to October 12, 2007, that was correct?
A. For what?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Is that your testimony?
A. For what?
Q. You told the PDC that you didn't collect any money for your 2008 governor race prior to October 12, 2007; is that correct?
A. Right. Well, I made the announcement on October 11 -- I mean not an announcement but that's when I made the decision.
Q. Did you receive any pledges for funds prior to October 12, 2007?
A. No.
Q. Did you spend any money on your campaign prior to that date?
A. It was no campaign. I wasn't a candidate for governor at that point in time, I hadn't made the decision until October 11 of 2007. I think we've already covered that.
Q. Did you spend any money on exploring the possibility of running for governor prior to that time?
A. No. That's an active of starting a campaign if you were to do that, and I did not do that.
Q. Did you have anyone assist you to set the ground work for a potential campaign prior to that time?
A. I mean, what kind of ground work? I don't understand what you mean.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Well, let's say did you ask anybody to start preparing a fund raising plan for you?
A. No, I had no fund raising plan. I was not a candidate for governor. At that point in time I was about 75 percent sure I would not be running for governor precisely for the reasons that we're here today, and the toll it takes on one's family to actually run for public office when you have people taking partisan pot shots at you and your family throughout this process like we're doing here today.
Q. Uh-huh. And so it is your testimony, would it be correct to say, that between October 12th and the end of the month you were able to from scratch create a fund raising plan and raise almost a half a million dollars?
A. Oh, certainly. I'll tell you exactly how that works is that when I started campaigning in 2004 -- well, actually 2003 when I became a candidate, I had 12 percent name ID statewide. You know, most people in the state knew Dino Rossi at that point in time. Right now when I started this last time I started with probably 80 or 90 percent name ID so I could easily pick up, you know, a phone book and find people who were contributors to my campaign last time just looking at my old PDCs and made phone calls. I made no phone calls to anybody for candidate before I actually became a candidate because I wasn't sure I was going to run. The conditions that I laid out for me to run was 75 percent statewide said I was not likely to do it is one of the main pieces was because of my family. You know, we have four children at that point in time there was between 6 and 16 years old. This is not an easy thing on the family. And that's why I had to make sure it was right for my family first before I made any decisions beyond that.
Q. And was it possible that your fund raising consultant was laying the ground work and lining up contributors prior to the time that -- prior to October 12th?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Is it possible?
A. I mean, I don't know. I mean it's -- I'm not going to say it's possible, that's for sure.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Do you have any reason to believe or disbelieve that your fund raiser, Amy Barns was contacting people ahead of time to line up contributors prior to October 12, 2007?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Contributors to your 2008 governors race.
A. The 2008 governors race. (The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. I have no reason to believe she was doing that.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And when you attended the -- you were a keynote at Semiahmoo, do you recall the BIAW presenting poll results?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. When did you first learn about BIAW's efforts to raise funds from their local affiliates for the 2008 governor's race? (The Reporter read back as requested.)
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) By affiliates I'm referring to Master Builders Associations and the other 15 or 17 local affiliates. You can answer the question, please.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When did you first learn of BIAW's efforts to raise funds from local affiliates for the 2008 governor's race?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So in 2007 in the April, May and June timeframe, did you have any idea that BIAW was trying to create a pot of money for the 2008 governor's race?
A. I know they were trying to come together on supporting all candidates across the state that were pro small business candidates. I don't know how their interworkings of the money works, I don't know if they have a separate pot for legislative candidates or a separate pot for Attorney General's. I have no idea how their funds work. So to tell you that I knew that they were doing something in that manner is inaccurate. It was for supporting all small business candidates, Republican and Democrat alike, and in a very general sense.
Q. Okay. So when did you first learn that the BIAW -- of the BIAW's efforts to raise funds from local affiliates for supporting local candidates in the -- or candidates -- excuse me, I'll restate that. When did you first learn about BIAW's efforts to raise funds from their local affiliates for electoral activities in the 2008 election cycle?
A. What's the question?
(The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. I don't know about 2008, but they're always involved in BIAW's group and always involved in political activities continuously, and it's at a local level, state level, all the way around. I don't know if they do federal stuff, and so it's one continuous effort, just like your friends at SCIU or Washington state labor council who are picketing in front of the building right now who are paid by the Washington State Labor Council or others. It's a continuous effort and 128 so a distinction between '08 and some other time, I don't recall when that would have changed, if they're somehow aligned.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When you made the phone calls to the local officers of the MBA, at that point did you know that the BIAW was seeking funds from the MBA to fund electoral activities?
(The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. They were seeking to fund electoral activities on a broad based sense, not just funds but having the support. Part of the problem was is that there was a personality clash between the Seattle Master Builders and the folks at the BIAW, and so me not being a candidate and about 75 percent sure I wasn't going to run again, they asked if I could bring the two together because they promote small business candidates around the state, which I support small business candidates around the state. So that's what happened.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And if you had brought them together, would that have resulted in the MBA pooling money with the BIAW for electoral activities?
A. I have no idea what they do, it's up to them.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And when you called -- when you made those three phone calls, did you -- who asked you specifically to make those three phone calls to John day, Joe Schwab and Doug barns that are reflected in the May 21st MBA -- 2007 MBA minutes?
A. I talked to Tom Mc Cabe. He said that there was a clash.
Q. And do you know when you spoke to Tom Mc Cabe?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Was it perhaps a week or two weeks or three weeks before you made the phone call or a day?
A. I'm not speculating. I don't know.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did Tom Mc Cabe tell you who these three people are or did you already know them?
A. I had met -- I knew John day and I had met Joe and Doug before.
Q. Okay. And did you know what their positions with MBA are?
A. I wasn't sure what their current or former positions are with the group.
Q. And where did you get their phone numbers?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you know that Daimon Doyle had previously asked the MBA for a contribution to their electoral activities?
A. Daimon Doyle was part of what happened here is that Daimon Doyle went and talked to them and said you will participate with us, and that was the part of the difficulty between the group because they don't have to do anything. And so they were upset and I think the personalities clashed. And in the broader political scope of this, it's better to have groups organized together, especially a group like this, it's one of the few that's a pro small business group and have them organized and go in a certain direction to support pro business, small business candidates. And unfortunately the relationship was pretty severely severed at that point in time.
Q. And so can you restate the question, please?
(The Reporter read back as requested.)
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) That's the question.
A. What I got from Tom Mc Cabe is that the Seattle Master Builders weren't going to participate with them, you know, money or not, that wasn't really part of the conversation. It was about how they were not going to participate and these guys were not part of the crew, not part of the group.
Q. And that's helpful information but the question, if you could read it again please.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So just talking contributions, I know there's the bigger participation, just focusing on financial contributions, it sounds like you were aware that the BIAW had asked for a financial contribution from the MBA prior to you making those phone calls; is that correct?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Yes or no?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Were you aware that part of what Daimon Doyle was asking for was in April was a financial contribution for electoral activities?
A. From the MBA? That was part of the financial part was part of their overall participation, but they could give it or not, it's up to them.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. And so when you called Doug barns, how long was your conversation?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) How long was your conversation with Mr. Barns?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall talking about any financial contributions?
A. That I don't think so, no, I don't recall that.
Q. Did you talk about the 2008 governor's race?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk about BIAW's efforts to fund raise for its electoral activities?
A. Talked about them coming back together and found out from them what they were upset with with Daimon Doyle.
Q. And what were they upset about?
A. They were upset that he came in and said you will participate with us, and apparently they have a choice as to participate or not. And they didn't like being told that.
Q. And were you encouraging them to participate?
A. My goal was to try to bring them back together and participate as one because it's better to participate as one than scattered as a shotgun. At that point in time I clearly was not a candidate for governor.
Q. Right.
A. So the whole point of this was to bring it back together so they can support pro business candidates across the state.
Q. Financially and otherwise?
A. The whole package. They'd have to decide whether they wanted to do the financially or not.
Q. When you called Joe Schwab, do you recall how long your conversation was?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk about those same issues with him?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall talking about the 2008 governor's race?
A. No. You know, from the standpoint, everybody for the last three years before I decided to run again, every day would ask me a dozen times a day are you going to run again. Which is why in your lawsuit you have the word if so many times, if you actually wanted to highlight it you could find the word if. You say Jeff Hansel said, you know, if Dino doesn't run and others say if Dino runs. It's because every time I was asked that question I was very honest in saying first off to make sure it's right for my family and then we have to make sure if it makes sense to do. And so if there was any context of anybody asking that question anywhere, public or private, me saying I was running for governor never happened.
Q. Right, but is it safe to say that you were confident that if you decided to run, the BIAW would support you?
A. You know, I have no idea if they were going to support me or not until you get in there. When you make an announcement that you're going to run for governor you have all sorts of people that are asking you every single day, are you going to run again, are you going to run again, I sure you run again, it happens day after day after day especially when I say I m
A. 2004. You make the announcement and you look over your shoulder and see if anybody is with you. Have you ever run for office before?
Q. No.
A. Hopefully some day you will.
Q. And do you consider yourself a small business candidate?
A. A small business candidate?
Q. Yeah.
A. I'm a small businessman that supports small business candidates, you bet. I've always been supportive of small business candidates.
Q. Did you know that Joe Schwab was on the executive committee of the BIAW?
A. I believe that he was part of the leadership. I don't know what his title was, though.
Q. And did you talk to Joe Schwab about the BIAW having a strong program for funding electoral activities?
A. To fund -- to be involved in support of small business candidates across the state, sure.
Q. And with John day, the minutes that I know you have seen state that you reiterated that he claimed, he reported in the minutes that he reiterated to you, Dino Rossi, the board's sentiment that it was too early and there are building issues to address. Do you recall any of those details of that conversation?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'll just ask you if you can answer that.
A. Which minutes? Do you have it?
Q. The May 21, 2007 minutes. Have you taken a look at those prior to today?
A. Was I supposed to have it committed to memory? 139 Can I see it?
Q. Have you looked at them in preparing for this deposition or prior to the deposition?
A. I had one hour because the judge told us we had to come in here beforehand to sit down with my lawyer. I haven't had hours and hours to prepare like you have.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So if you take a look down -- I've given you what's been marked as --
A. You haven't highlighted anything so.
Q. I can give you a highlighted version. Just looking at the last paragraph on the first page where they're talking about -- I'm going to read it to you, the key passages. Doug moved in to discussion regarding the request from BIAW to use excess money from the ROII refund to fund the BIAW's war chest, and it goes down a little bit. Doug, Joe and John reported that they had received a call from Dino Rossi. John stated that he reiterated the board's sentiment to Rossi stating that it was too early and the association had building issues that needed to be resolved. Doug indicated he would call Daimon and let him know that the MBA has taken no action, though it doesn't mean that the board won't take action later. September would be a good time to make a decision. Do those minutes accurately reflect your recollection of the conversations you had with those three?
(The Reporter read back as requested.)
A. When they talk about building issues, it's part about the relationship back with the group between the BIAW and the Seattle Master Builders, I imagine that's what they're doing here with that conversation. And they were not interested in trying to smooth that over at that point in time. They were pretty furious.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So who told you that they were furious, which of these three officers?
A. I don't recall which one, but they all had about the same story.
Q. That they felt like they were being imposed upon by -- and told what to do as opposed to being asked, would that be correct?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Is that what they told you?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did John day, and do you recall John day telling you that it was too early for the MBA to make a contribution to the BIAW for electoral activities as of that time you talked with him?
A. I don't recall him saying that. What I recall is that they were still upset with the fact that Daimon Doyle said you will participate with us and they said we don't have to do what you say, and that they felt that -- and as it's explained, they have different world they live in. The Seattle Master Builders live in a very -- you know, in your county, a very Democratic leaning county and they have to deal in those political realities, where BIAW serves most of the state which doesn't have the same concerns.
Q. Right.
A. And so they felt that they are very different and very separate, distinct, and they didn't have to do what Daimon Doyle said.
Q. Right. (Discussion off the record.)Here is where Mr. Lowney tells Mr. Patterson to Shut the Fuck Up.
(Recess taken.)
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) If we could go back on the record. We are back on the record. So you believed that it would be better for all the associations and BIAW to coordinate on their political support for candidates rather than going it alone; is that correct?
A. No. What I said is I think they should come together, and I thought it would be good for them to come together versus using a shotgun method. I was supporting pro business candidates around the State of Washington.
Q. And at the time in May your testimony is that you didn't -- you hadn't decided to become a candidate; correct, but if -- at that time did you feel that this support would be available if you did decide to run for office?
A. It was. It's like I said before, is when you make an announcement, you know, you make an announcement and there's a lot of people that say sure, I'd like you to run again and then you make an announcement and you look over your shoulder and see if anybody is with you, you know, and you just never know about these things. So, you know, this is my fifth race, second statewide, three for the state senate, so I've been through this before and I understand the thinking of folks that, you know, and how this works, so I don't count on anything.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) After you made the phone calls to those three officers, did you report them to anybody? Did you call Tom Mc Cabe back and tell him that you made the calls?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you make any notes about the calls?
A. No.
Q. Were they all made on the same day --
A. You can see I'm not much of a note taker.
Q. Were they all made on the same day or different days, do you recall?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you ever learn whether MBA had decided to join up with the BIAW on this effort or not?
A. In the end I left it, that was it. I don't know if they ended up -- what they ended up with participating with or coming together or not. In the end I speculate the rift was strong enough to where they didn't.
Q. And your impression of the rift was based upon both your conversations with Tom Mc Cabe and the local officers; is that correct?
A. With both sides.
Q. Yeah.
A. In hearing the argument.
Q. And so were you ever informed that the MBA chose to set aside a half a million dollars for the governor's race in 2008?
A. That I don't know about.
Q. If they had done so would you believe that your calls may have encouraged that decision?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can still answer, if you can.
A. I don't know what they were doing or how they were doing it. I don't know the internal workings of their financial situation. The whole point was is to support pro business candidates across the State of Washington. At that point in time, like I said before, I was 75 percent sure I would never be running for office again, and ask me on Tuesday whether I was right or not.
Q. So is it -- you said you did not -- well, I can't remember exactly what you said, but let's focus on the Master Builders Association of Pierce County for a minute. They also were having trouble coming together with the BIAW. Did you make any calls to any staff or officers or board members for the Master Builders Association of Pierce County?
A. Can you rephrase that?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Let me do it. Do you recall in the course of these sort of three months around April, May 2007 making any calls to anybody at Pierce County Master Builders Association?
A. I don't recall doing that.
Q. Okay. Do you recall going there in person for a meeting?
A. I don't recall that. I gave a speech there.
Q. Oh, you did give a speech there. When was that?
A. I don't recall when it was but I know it was -- I guess it was actually after I was a candidate.
Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 25. I'd ask you to sort of take a look through here, and what I'm going to ask you after you get a chance to look through is whether you recall making any calls or having any contacts with any of these organizations or officers in the time period around -- in the sort of three months give or take May of 2007.
A. You've got about 25 names per page and you have two, four, six, eight pages of just sheer names.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay.
A. And what's your question about it? During that time period around May did I talk to any of these people?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Three months give or take prior to when you announced for governor whether you initiated any contacts with these organizations or these people.
A. I don't know a lot of these people by name, I know their face. I don't know them by name. There's some that -- and I don't know when the time was though, and I don't know if it was in that window where I did -- I was asked to do an installation for somebody who became president, I think it was like in the Yakima are
A. It was eastern Washington. I can't remember -- I honestly can't remember the name though. I don't know any of those people. I mean, other than the ones we talked about, John day, I mean, I recognize those, Doug barns.
A. I'd say 95 percent of these names I don't recognize, first off. And I have no memorable conversation with any of these folks that I can think of within the timeframe you're talking about.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And as you read through this, did you note the names of these local affiliates or some of them are familiar to you and some of them are not, I assume?
A. Yeah. The --
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) The names of the organizations on this. Well, let me ask you this. Do you recall making any contacts that you initiated with any of these organizations in this time period?
A. In this time period I gave speeches to various groups, rotaries, chambers, associations about -- on behalf of the Forward Washington Foundation about improving the business climate in the state of Washington for small and medium-sized business. Just like I did at the lunch you referred to in Semiahmoo. It's the same PowerPoint presentation I gave all across the state. There are some of these I'm sure I probably gave PowerPoint presentation to. But I've given like I said, thousands of speeches over the last couple years.
Q. Did Tom Mc Cabe ask you to call anybody other than the three names that we already talked about?
A. No, not that I recall.
Q. So he only asked you to call those three people but nobody else affiliated with the BIAW?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Ever? A. Not that --
A. I've said that about four times.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did anyone else at BIAW ask you to make phone calls to other affiliates or their officers or staff?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you think that's something that you would recall?
A. If it were some memorable event I probably would recall it, but I wasn't a candidate at the time and I was about 75 percent sure I would never be running for office again. It doesn't slow down my support for small business candidates across this state, and that's really what we're talking about here.
Q. And then did you ask the Sam Anderson and some of the officers from MBA to go to lunch with you in approximately I believe June?
A. Yeah, I had --
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) June of '07.
A. I'm not sure what the time was but it was part of trying to put them back together again with John day and Joe Schwab.
Q. Uh-huh. So it was the same sort of general dispute issues as you've testified to previously?
A. Yeah. That's where I got the full information as to why they were upset.
Q. And did anyone at BIAW know that you were 154 going on that lunch?
A. I'm not aware. I'm not sure.
Q. Did you ask these people you had lunch with whether they would support your candidacy for governor in 2008?
A. No, because there was no candidacy for governor in 2008. Like I said -- Q. Potential.
A. There was no potential. At that point I was more likely not to run than to run. The whole point was to bring -- to try to smooth over the ruffled feathers that had occurred when Daimon Doyle told them what they were going to do and they said we don't have to do what you say we're going to do.
Q. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 33, and I'll just read that fourth paragraph there. This is a chair officer's meeting, June 18, 2007. It says Monday, the 25th, Doug dawn and Sam planned to have lunch with Dino Rossi at the Bellevue club. Dino is trying to decide whether he wants to be a candidate for governor and wants to know what kind of support he will have. Does this accurately reflect what you said when you asked these individuals to lunch?
A. No, it doesn't.
A. That's not what I said. And that isn't accurate. When I asked them to lunch we were talking about them being involved with BIAW and being involved in supporting candidates across this state.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Because -- so your focus in the lunch was sort of like the focus of your phone calls which was trying to patch the MBA and the BIAW up in their political efforts to support small business candidates?
A. I wasn't a candidate for governor at that point in time, and like I said, I was about 75 percent sure I wouldn't run. Because of the stress on the family and how difficult it is to run for office statewide. We were five months away from making that decision before I -- whether I'd really run again or not, but in the end it ended up being in October 11th was the date. And so, yeah.
Q. And so at that time, just to repeat my question, you were focused at that lunch on the question of whether or not MBA would participate with BIAW and the other local BIAW affiliates in their political efforts; is that correct?
A. What I did was try to bring them together so that they would support pro small business candidates in the state and fully hear out what the problems were between the two. In the end, in the end they were -- it looked like there was
quite a rift in this effort because of the issue between Daimon Doyle and these folks, Joe and John.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And during this conversation at lunch, did you at that point learn that the -- that Daimon Doyle had asked the MBA for a contribution for their electoral activities?
A. What I know is that Daimon said you will participate with us, and they said we don't have to participate with you. Financial or otherwise they don't have to participate. All of them together are stronger than these guys separately, and that was the point I was trying to convey to this group. I wasn't a candidate at that point in time.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Right, no, I understand, I'm just trying to get into the details of the lunch and what happened at the lunch, and specifically did you talk about, for example, the MBA donating some of their retrospective rating money to the BIAW as had been requested of them previously by the BIAW?
A. I didn't talk about them specifically donating any money to any group. I'm not clear on actually how the BIAW raises all their money or what pots they put it in or how they -- or you know, how it gets done. That wasn't really my mission. My mission was to try to repair a fractured relationship, was my mission in sitting down and meeting with them and trying to figure out what their objections were and to participating fully with the BIAW.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And who made the reservation for lunch?
A. I don't know. I think it was John day maybe, I don't know.
Q. Do you recall who paid for lunch?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you recall where lunch was?
A. Somewhere in Bellevue, because I was in Bellevue at the time.
Q. So no one from -- affiliated with the BIAW has ever explained to you how they would potentially get money or contributions from their local affiliates?
A. I'm not aware of how they raised the money they raised. I'm not privy to all the factions within -- all the ways of raising money within the organization. That's not ever been something I've been interested in learning about so I'm sure there's many ways to do whatever it is they do.
Q. Do you know how much money the BIAW spent in the governor's race this year?
A. I don't know. I imagine you're going to tell me.
Q. Nobody's told you?
A. I said I imagine you're going to tell me.
Q. No, I know, but I'm just wondering --
A. I don't know.
Q. That nobody has mentioned that to you?
A. All I'm trying to do is run my race for governor here of Washington state, and we're focusing on what we have to do in our campaign. What independent expenditure peopole do, they do it on their own and that's why they call it independent. And so how they raise their money is up to them, how they spend their money is up to them. I have no input into that either way, and so that's how this works, I understand that. That's exactly how this works.
Q. Did you give the BIAW any other assistance in their fund raising activities or any -- I'll strike that and say, did you give the BIAW any assistance in fund raising for their electoral activities prior to announcing as a candidate?
A. I don't recall doing that.
Q. Did you have contact with other BIAW decision makers other than Tom Mc Cabe?
A. I don't recall. Really Tom Mc Cabe was the one that called me.
Q. Did you ever have a meeting with Daimon Doyle?
A. I saw him at functions, like a function like this one, like the Semiahmoo one.
Q. Did he ever talk to you about the support of -- BIAW's support for running for office in 2008?
A. He like everybody across the state said I'd sure like you to run again and I said you know what, I haven't made that decision, and I've got to make sure it's right for my family first before I do something like this. And so BIAW cannot make that decision for me as a candidate, nor can you. You know, you have to check with my wife first, that's the first stop I have to go. And before I become a candidate. And so we went through this with a six-month investigation with the PDC, we went through the fact that the phony complaint filed by the state Democratic party tried to claim I was a candidate before I actually became a candidate. The only person that can make me a candidate is me. My wife running around saying I'm a candidate still doesn't make any a candidate. You can talk to the press all day long saying I'm a candidate and that doesn't make my candidate.
Q. Did you have contact with anybody, prior to announcing your candidacy, did you talk with anybody at the BIAW about what it would take for a Republican candidate to win in 2008?
A. I don't recall, I don't recall that. You know, I know what it would take, it would take more than what we had last time. We were out spent by well over a million dollars by special interest groups and the like. Well, probably more like $3 million in the end by special interest groups working for Christine Gregoire, many of which are working for her again this time and are, you know, behind things like this phony lawsuit.
Q. And do you -- did you have any conversations about your opinions on what it would take to win with anyone at BIAW that you recall?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Do you remember -- do you recall having any conversations like that since you announced for governor?
A. I don't recall having those conversations with anybody at BIAW about what it takes to do this race since I've been a candidate for governor which started on October 11, 2007.
Q. And have you had other conversations with folks at the BIAW about your run for governor since you announced?
A. I don't understand. I mean, who at BIAW?
Q. I'm asking you what conversations you've had.
A. Give me a name.
Q. I don't know all the people at BIAW.
A. Tom Mc Cabe, no.
Q. But I think if you met them you would be able to tell me?
A. How many members does BIAW? 13,500.
Q. Decision makers, officers.
A. That's why I'm asking you to be specific about this.
Q. Thank you for the clarification.
A. Because there are plenty of people out there who are members of BIAW who are out there all the time that you bump into.
Q. Certainly?
A. People I don't know personally. No, actually I haven't picked up the phone and talked to anybody, nobody has picked up the phone and talked to me about what is going on with their independent expenditures, and because they wouldn't be independent then and that wouldn't be legal now, would it?
Q. And what about any of your consultants or your staff? Are you aware of any of your consultants or staff having discussions with the BIAW?
A. About what?
Q. About your election campaign or the governor's race?
A. I'm not aware.
Q. Have you taken steps within your campaign to make sure that such coordination does not occur?
A. My campaign staff knows that you can't coordinate with an independent expenditure because that wouldn't be legal, and which is why we don't coordinate with people who do independent expenditures, which is also why independent expenditures are dangerous things in a campaign because sometimes your own team can torpedo you with putting up an ad that you probably didn't want up there and causing a candidate more trouble than it's worth.
Q. And that prohibition on coordination was triggered when you declared yourself a candidate; is that correct?
A. I don't understand what you mean.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Is it your belief that the prohibition on coordination was triggered when you declared yourself a candidate?
A. Yeah, and coordination, define coordination.
Q. Coordination under 42.17, the Fair Campaign Practices Act, the coordination that we've been talking about.
A. I don't have that committed to memory. What does that mean? You're the lawyer here.
Q. Yeah, the type of coordination we've been talking about. I'm not talking about the nuances of that coordination prohibition, I'm talking about your understanding of when that prohibition comes into effect.
A. I want to know what your definition of coordination is before I answer the question.
Q. I'm afraid I can't give you a lesson on that.
A. Why can't you? Just give me what the law is. You know the law, I'm not a lawyer, you are.
Q. The way that you have just described the prohibition. I think that you previously said you couldn't coordinate because that would be against the rules.
A. You can't tell them what ads to run, you can't tell them what ads you can't run. Is that what you call the coordination?
Q. Sure, whatever you believe it is?
A. Is that the definition? Let's say it is for the purpose of this coordination.
A. Let's not say this is the definition of coordination.
Q. Among other things that definition of prohibition that you described is I believe --
A. Among the other things? What are the other things?
Q. I'm afraid I can't give a lesson?
A. I'm supposed to be able to tell you? I'm not a lawyer.
Q. I'm not asking you about your understanding what the prohibition is. Let's say for a second we're talking about the prohibition on what you just described, that coordination. When does it come into being?
A. So if I go talk to a BIAW member and they say how is the campaign going and I say it's going great, is that coordination? They look like the campaign is on track and somehow that's coordinating.
Q. I have a question for you. Were you able to answer it?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Well, I have a feeling you'll have an opportunity to have a conversation about that with your attorney after the deposition but right now I'm trying to take a deposition and I'm asking you a 166 question that --
A. For a word that I don't know the definition to and you want me to answer it? But I tell you, I did not coordinate as far as nobody that I know of has coordinated with BIAW and said that you should run certain ads or not run certain ads. I have no knowledge of that whatsoever, and I don't believe that would have happened. I certainly didn't do anything like that. But if your coordination definition goes beyond that, I don't know what it is, which is what I'm asking you to define. How difficult is that?
Q. And that prohibition that you just described, it's your position that that comes into effect when you announce yourself for -- as a candidate; is that correct?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm asking.
A. And normally I would consult with my attorney on something like this when it comes to the coordination pieces, and the idea that you can coordinate with a group outside your campaign that's running independent expenditure, you can't do that. I mean, as far as the coordination of running ads or not running ads. 167
Q. Have you shared -- have you or your campaign shared non-public information with the BIAW?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. If they -- have your campaign staff visited BIAW headQuarters in the past six months that you know of? 8
A. I'm out in the campaign trail 12 to 16 hours a day. I don't know that anybody's visited the head
Quarters -- campaign, BIAW's campaign headQuarters, is that what you said?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) BIAW's headQuarters.
A. In Olympia?
Q. Yeah.
A. That I don't know.
Q. Have you had BIAW staff visit your headQuarters?
A. Well, in the times I've been in the headQuarters I've never seen anybody from BIAW.
Q. And you haven't heard about it, such a meeting?
A. No, I haven't heard about such a thing either.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 13. If I could direct you -- I gave you the whole thing, and I'm going to direct your attention if I might to the relevant portions of this?
A. What is this?
Q. This is the executive committee meetings from February 27, 2006. And I'm --
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Excuse me, February 22, 2006. If you could turn your attention to Page 15, I know you'll want to glance through this and that's fine, I'll tell you I'm not going to ask you anything other than where it starts talking at the bottom of page 14. And specifically at the bottom of Page 15, pat Mc bride, it says pat Mc bride clarified what had taken place. He said his understanding was that Dino Rossi approached BIAW when he had a debt of $2 million, and we said not yet. Dino went back and found all but 235,000 and now Dino has come back and asked for help again. And I'm wondering if that refreshes your recollection about whether you asked the BIAW for $2 million to pay off your legal fees.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer that.
A. Well, I don't recall asking them for $2 million, and it wasn't my debt, it was the state party's debt. The state party was the main driver behind the lawsuit for the election contest in Wenatchee. In fact, I never even was in Wenatchee during that lawsuit. I didn't show up, I didn't have to testify or anything in that lawsuit. And so asking for help for the state party was what this is actually I think referring to. But I didn't ask for 2 million that I know of.
Q. And at the bottom of page 14 it talked about that the original amount of the legal debt had been work, quote, worked down through contributions and efforts of BIAW staff working with the legal firms to write off amounts. Were you familiar that BIAW was negotiating with your legal team over the --
A. State party?
Q. Over the legal fees that were incurred in your lawsuit? 23
A. So what happened is the state party brought the election contest lawsuit, and then there was a bill that was owed. What people did to raise money for it from the state party level or what BIAW did on their own I'm not aware of what all the things that may have happened there.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. But you do agree that you made these -- you don't recall the amounts but you do recall making these reQuests to BIAW to make these payments; is that correct?
A. I asked BIAW to help the state party out financially, yes.
Q. And here on the very top of Page 15 they suggest that they're making this contribution because there was an understanding that Rossi was still BIAW's best chance in 2008 to take back the governor's house with someone who is friendly to the building community. Hansel said there were numerous comments and commitments to make sure that BIAW move forward to create a strategy and fund. Now, when you asked the BIAW --
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) It is what this piece of evidence which is the BIAW's executive committee meeting minutes states. And what I read to you -- Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I know. My question is, when you asked the BIAW to assist the state party in paying off this legal debt, did you suggest that that would assist you in beginning your campaign for governor in 2008?
A. No. I was not a candidate for governor. And as I'm sure Mr. Hansel and anybody else will tell you, when they asked me if I was going to run again for governor I told them that it depended on was it right for my family, is it the right thing to do. And at this point in time, this is even before the other -- it was like a year and a half before the other conversations. And just coming off this last election in '04 and after the election contest, the likelihood of me running was 172 probably even less than the 75 percent negative that I had before. So what they characterize in minutes is what they characterize in minutes but it doesn't mean that's what I said.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When the conversation happened over these particular contributions towards the legal fund, towards paying off the legal debt, was there any conversation that you recall about keeping the payments secret?
A. No.
Q. Is this something that you felt like should be kept secret at the time?
A. I don't know anything about that. I don't know what you're talking about.
Q. The fact that the BIAW -- the fact that you had asked BIAW for money to pay off your legal debt, was that something that you wanted to keep secret?
A. It's also the fact that you keep saying it's my debt. It was the state party's debt.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Paying off the debt.
A. The state party's debt.
Q. Okay, the state party's debt.
A. Thank you.
Q. And my question was -- well, I think you said it. So you didn't feel --
A. No, I didn't say -- ask the question properly with the state party involved in the question.
Q. That is sort of a question of law, I suppose, but I guess my question was, did you suggest to the BIAW that they should take steps to keep your solicitation of them or their payment for this legal debt secret?
A. I thought I already answered it.
A. I said no.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm going to hand you what's been marked as 15.
A. What is it?
Q. This is the Board of Directors meeting minutes from that same date where the board now is deciding to pay money towards these legal fees, and I'll just point your attention to -- do you know who Lyle Fox was? Do you know Lyle Fox?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) This is on page 12. There's a couple --
A. Where are you?
Q. Where it says about halfway up, Jeff Hansel, Dino Rossi. Hansel said Dino had gone to Hansel and requested help in retiring the lawsuit debt Dino was saddled with a huge debt and was seeking BIAW's help. Hansel indicated to Dino that BIAW would consider as long as he continued to work hard in getting the debt retired. The amount started at 2 million and was worked down considerably. Dino was in need of help to avoid litigation and negative PR. And then it goes on to say, the funds would be paid directly to the law firm.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You just asked me where I was talking about. My question was is do you know who Lyle Fox is?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) My question is do you know who Lyle Fox is. I don't think you can strike my question.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) My question is do you know who Lyle Fox is?
A. I have met him before.
Q. Who is he?
A. He's a builder.
Q. So on page 13 there's a statement that says fox asked that the Dino Rossi reQuest for help be kept quiet in an effort to protect Rossi from any bad publicity. So is it your testimony that you didn't ask them to keep this Quiet?
A. No, I don't know why you would. Why would you keep it Quiet? And the other piece of this too is it says what you just read into the record, Dino Rossi was saddled with a debt. I wasn't saddled with a debt, the state party was saddled with a debt. So this is a characterization of someone's minutes of a conversations 176 about the state party's debt, and so to characterize it as my debt I think is a mischaracterization in the first place. And the idea here, I don't know why the state party would want to hide a -- they would want to hide a contribution from anybody.
Q. Well, let me ask you this.
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Let me ask you this question. Why would the money, the contribution from the BIAW be paid directly to the law firm other than to avoid a paper trail?
Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I know, I'm asking, are there any other reasons that you could think of why the transaction would go down that way other than to make sure that there's no report that's filed with the PDC on that?
EXAMINATION
BY MR. MAGUIRE:
Q. Thank you, Mr. Rossi. Earlier Mr. Withey and Mr. Lowney were asking you a lot of questions about BIAW and they were throwing around some terms, BIAW and BIAW MSC or member services corporation. Do you have any familiarity with the structure of BIAW or any of its associated entities?
A. I really don't. I don't know what MSC is, how that works.
Q. So when you were being questioned by plaintiff's counsel earlier today about BIAW, do you have any idea whether they were referring to a non-profit political action committee or a local association?
A. No.
Q. Earlier you testified that you became a candidate for governor for the 2008 governor's race in October 11, 2007; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. When did you first communicate that decision to anyone?
A. My wife and I made that decision that morning, and then it was that day on the 11th, which once you say it publicly or even privately, honestly, if you say it privately you still that clock starts ticking, as I understand it, 14 days. So I had 14 days to try to do something, get moving.
Q. So prior to October 11, 2007, did you ever tell any BIAW officer or director or staff member that you intended to run for governor in 2008?
A. No.
Q. What did you tell them about your intentions, if anything?
A. That it had to be right for my family first and it's difficult to run for public office, let alone run for governor and that you end up being subject to, you know, all sorts of issues and smears and the like, just like this phony lawsuit we're here about today.
Q. Before October 11, 2007, did BIAW or any of the groups that you know to be affiliated or associated with the BIAW ask for your consent to receive contributions on your behalf with the intent to promote your candidacy? 180
A. Absolutely not because there was no candidacy.
Q. And so that means you didn't consent to any such thing?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Before October 11, 2007, did BIAW or any of the entities you know to be associated with BIAW ask for your consent to make expenditures on your behalf for the intent to promote your candidacy?
A. No. MR. LOWNEY: I'm going to object because it calls for a legal conclusion.
Q. (BY MR. MAGUIRE) Did you consent to any such expenditures to be made on your behalf with the intent to promote your candidacy?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Before October 11, 2007, did BIAW or any of the entities that you know of that are related to BIAW ask for your consent to purchase commercial advertising space for broadcast time to promote your candidacy?
A. No.
Q. Didn't consent to that?
A. Didn't consent to that either.
Q. Prior to October 11, 2007 did BIAW or any of the groups that you know to be associated with BIAW ask 181 for your consent to promote your election as governor in 2008?
A. No.
Q. So you didn't consent to any such thing?
A. Didn't consent to that.
Q. Since January 1, 2007, has BIAW or any of these entities that you know to be associated with BIAW ever asked for your approval or encouragement to make an expenditure for any political advertising opposing Christine Gregoire or supporting your candidacy?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever given approval or encouragement to them?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever collaborated with BIAW or any of the entities that you know to be associated with BIAW for the purpose of making an expenditure for any political advertising supporting your candidacy or promoting the defeat of Christine Gregoire?
A. No.
MR. MAGUIRE: Thank you, Mr. Rossi. I think those are all the questions I have for you today. I appreciate your patience.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. PATTERSON:
Q. Mr. Rossi, when did you decide to run for governor in 2008?
A. I made the decision on the 11th of October of 2007.
Q. When did you publicly announce you were a candidate for governor in 2008?
A. Public announcement was on the 25th of October 2007.
Q. When did you first ask for campaign contributions for your run for governor in 2008?
A. It was after we made the decision on the 11th, probably started on the 12th.
Q. When did you first accept any campaign contributions for and on behalf of your campaign for governor in 2008?
A. I would imagine that I believe it was the 12th of 2007.
Q. Now, there was previous litigation, was there not, as to whether or not you were a candidate prior to your announcement; is that correct?
A. We had a complaint, a phoney complaint filed by Christine Gregoire's political operatives about the Forward Washington foundation, that somehow I was a candidate for office. The PDC did a six-month exhaustive investigation with dozens of witnesses, and they came to the conclusion that I was telling the truth all along, Christine Gregoire and her political operatives were not, and they said no, that I was not a candidate before the 11th of October.
Q. Did you ever encourage BIAW at any point in time to raise funds to support your candidacy?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever coordinate fund raising with the BIAW for your candidacy?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever approve BIAW expenditures for your candidacy?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever encourage BIAW expenditures for your candidacy?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever consent for BIAW to form a committee to support you as a candidate?
A. No, I did not.
Q. When I'm talking about BIAW I'm talking about 184 any affiliates or organizations that you were connected with BIAW.
A. I did not.
Q. And do you believe that you have fully complied with the law as it relates to campaign financing insofar as your run for governor?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Do you from time to time consult with attorneys as it relates to PDC issues and campaign finance issues?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And with regard to the allegations in the complaint, you've had an opportunity, you've indicated prior to this deposition to review the allegations in the complaint, have you not?
A. I did.
Q. And do you believe insofar as the allegations in the complaint insofar as attempted alleged illegal activity as it relates to you are well founded?
A. There was actually a phoney complaint, more as a political stunt. Very clearly, just like Mr. Lowney did before with Mike McGavick, it was dismissed after the election was over, and there seems to be a pattern with Mr. Lowney.
Q. And you obviously had other things on your agenda today, correct, Mr. Rossi?
A. On my agenda today I had radio stations that I was supposed to be involved with and talk to and TV, a very large interview with a TV station. And I was supposed to be speaking to the largest rotary in Washington state, the Seattle rotary, Seattle four, which Christine Gregoire got to speak to I believe last week, and now I won't have the opportunity because they only meet on Wednesdays, and it'll be after the election.
MR. PATTERSON: I have no further questions at this time.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITHEY:
Q. Just one or two follow-up areas if I could, Mr. Rossi. First of all, in your -- when the investigation, the six-month investigation with the PDC you described, were you aware whether the minutes of the Master Builders Association or the BIAW that you've seen in your deposition today were provided to them?
A. I have no idea.
Q. And you understand that the PDC made no ruling as to whether these minutes show any improper coordination; correct?
A. I have no idea.
Q. If the minutes that we've described to you show that Dino is trying to decide whether he wants to be a candidate for governor and wants to know what kind of support we will have, that information was not provided to the PDC; correct?
A. That I don't know.
Q. So your testimony, though, is that the minutes are false; is that right?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) The extent to which you were trying to decide what kind of support you would have in June of 2007, the extent to which anybody said that, they would be false; correct?
A. That would be false. I was about 75 percent sure I would not run for governor or any office as a 187 candidate ever again about that point in time.
Q. Have you reviewed the PDC interview with Dino Rossi to prepare for this deposition?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever reviewed it?
A. No.
Q. I suppose you've told them that you were 75 percent sure that you were not going to run at that time; correct?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Can you think of any reason why you wouldn't since you referred to 75 percent about fifteen or twenty times?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'll withdraw it. Can you think of any reason why you would not have told the PDC that you were 75 percent sure you were not going to run?
A. I just told them I wasn't a candidate.
Q. Can you think of any reason you didn't tell them that it was 75 percent sure you were not?
Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer.
A. I did.
Q. Did you inform the PDC of any contact you had with members of the Master Builders Association or Mr. Mc Cabe at the BIAW in the process of their investigation?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Well, you recall that at the time of their investigation those events had already taken place; correct?
A. True. I don't recall that in the PDC.
Q. Can you think of any reason why you would not have told the PDC that?
A. I answered every question the PDC had. Just as I answered every question you had here today.
MR. WITHEY: Well, we'll let the judge decide that. For this stage I have no further -- let me finish please, Mike. I have no further questions. We'll ask the judge for a hearing, we'll ask the judge for sanctions on the basis I've previously said. And we have no further questions at this time, but we may have some further questions either before the election if ordered by the judge, or after the election.
THE WITNESS: And the record will show we gave them an extra ten minutes anyway. 18
EXAMINATION
BY MR. PATTERSON:
Q. You were asked by Mr. Withey about the PDC investigation. Did you in any way control that PDC investigation?
A. I'd have to say no control over it.
Q. Because the PDC, do they investigate what they want to investigate?
A. Anything they want to investigate.
Q. Do they ask questions that they want to ask?
A. Any question they want to ask they could ask.
Q. Was there any reason why they couldn't have had access to the minutes that were referred to here?
A. I don't know what they have access to or not. They had an assistant Attorney General working for them.
Q. Was this a lawyer that was doing this investigation?
A. It was actually the compliance person, I don't remember his name though. And they had a number of the PDC staff members working on this, and they had an Assistant Attorney General, more than one working on it, so they were working full time on this effort, and they determined in the end that I was not a candidate for governor, just as we talked about today.
Q. Did you fully and completely cooperate with that investigation?
A. Absolutely.
MR. PATTERSON: No further questions at this time.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITHEY:
Q. Mr. Rossi, you stated to the press that that investigation has resulted in the finding that you were not a candidate until October 11th; correct?
A. That's what they said.
Q. You've also said to the press that those raise the same issues as this lawsuit; correct?
A. Very similar issues, yeah. Was I a candidate or not a candidate.
Q. But you understand that the PDC did not resolve the issue as to whether these minutes show what they show; correct?
MR. WITHEY: Nothing further.
(End of rough draft.)
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